Sofia: First of all, with your permission, I will start the registration so I can upload it to my site.

 

Person 2: Sure! 

 

Sofia: Thank you. I wanted to ask you some questions because I know how much the disaster, which happened in November 2022, has touched our lives as Italians and especially yours as citizens of Ischia. Let's start with the first question: Can you tell me a story about someone you know personally who was greatly affected by the landslide? Have their lives completely returned to where they were before the disaster?

 

Person 1: We know a person who lost her sister, brother-in-law and three children. This was the biggest tragedy because an entire family died.  In the Celario area, the one that was overwhelmed by the collapse due to the mountain cave-in, there continue to be many evacuees; people are living in hotels and will probably never enter their homes again because those are gone and securing that area is really difficult if not impossible. Initially there were almost 400 evacuees because for security reasons people in the surrounding areas were also evacuated, now there are about a hundred. After that there are 3 interdicted areas in total until under Bagni Square that is the square where you shovelled. I wanted to let you talk to the husband of this woman who lost her whole family but he told me that his wife didn't have the heart to do the interview because it is still too painful a wound and also impossible to process because you know.... it's one thing to die after an illness ... but in this way, for a natural disaster, the destruction of a whole family, because we're talking about parents and children, it becomes really difficult to overcome such a painful loss.

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Sofia: I can imagine. Do you think Ischia is now back to normal?

 

Person 1: You know, Ischia is divided into six municipalities. The others are fully back to normal, not roughly affected by the flood. Casamicciola is still at a standstill in the sense that soon the interventions of the first phase, that is, those of unblocking the trees, cleaning up, will be finished. In Piazza Bagni, the one where you have been, there has been a cleanup that has allowed the reopening of the tobacco shop and the Belliazzi Baths; the rest of the businesses are still closed. As for the port area, on the other hand, the one where I was accompanying you, circulation has fully restarted. Unfortunately, the port is still closed and dredging will have to be done because of the sand banks caused by the flood. The timing of the dredging, however, cannot be predicted at the moment because it depends on what they will find whether material that is disposable at sea or in landfills, and in the latter case obviously the timeline will be longer. So the port of Casamicciola to this day is still closed. Obviously the main port remains the one in Ischia and then as a secondary port there is one in Forio.

 

Sofia: Thank you. Do you think Ischia has received sufficient state funds to solve the problem?

 

Persona 1: It seems to me that for Ischia, the government allocated an initial tranche in the short term for first aid and restoration work. Then later, if I am not mistaken, about 54 million euros were allocated for securing the area. But Sofia, the problem is that the area was previously hit by an earthquake in 2017 and the reconstruction, the interventions had been cosmetic, in fact, there are houses that are still destroyed so the problem of the earthquake is now added to that of the flooding, which basically, involves the same areas. So 54 million is a lot, but the intervention will be substantial. The problem is the cave-in of the mountain; so securing it means redoing all the canalisation works to make the rainwater flow... it is a job that will take many years.

 

Person 2: There have been huge boulders breaking and now they are just hovering.

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Sofia: Which organisation is helping to clean up? If you know.

 

Person 1: For now there is the Protezione Civile (Civil Protection). You know, an extraordinary commissioner has also been appointed; now, however, Casamicciola is campaigning in the sense that there will be elections in May, so for now Legnini has issued ordinances regarding dredging, cleanup work, and removing fallen trees. For now this is still the first phase, we are still there. Then of course we have to see, following the elections, what will be decided to do. Keep in mind that in any case there had been allocated ... I can't tell you the amount ... but in any case considerable millions of euros that then never arrived in Ischia before the Flood precisely because of the hydrogeologic disaster that also involved Casamicciola. So now it will be a matter of planning taking into account the outcome of the May elections.

 

Sofia: What do you think of the media's coverage of the Casamicciola disaster?

 

Person 1: As usual, when a problem happens in Ischia, illegal building is always involved. We do not deny that there is a scourge of illegal building, however we must also consider that in many areas in Ischia, building is prohibited. When you subject the island to so many building restrictions, without identifying building areas with PUC (municipal urban plan), it is normal that then you end up building illegally. I say this not to justify illegal building because then there are people who build thoughtlessly. But if during the Casamicciola earthquake some people wanted to blame illegal building, in this case it has nothing to do with it because basically it was the cave-in of the mountain.

 

Person 2: Also, one must consider that an island like Ischia has gone from 40,000 residents to 65,000 in the last 30 years. So, the number of houses that were naturally sufficient 30 years ago are no longer enough

 

Person 1: In fact, we are talking about illegal building out of necessity in the sense that many apartment orders involve first homes-that is, homes where families live with few resources.

 

Person 2: But even an extra room that you build puts you in violation with the law pertaining to the whole property.

 

Person 1: These are often "construction amnesties." When people say "In Ischia there are pending I don't know how many thousands of construction amnesties" in reality "construction amnesties" can involve even a simple canopy, or a change from a window to a door because for this change an amnesty distance is made. So when you read "one hundred thousand building permits" it is not "one hundred thousand dwellings." However, if on one hand it has been blamed on illegal building, on the other hand the public administration, especially the municipality of Ischia, has been engaged in a campaign of image revitalisation; in fact I don't know if you in Milan have seen but several billboards have been put up on Ischia during this winter; and now on Rai, once a week, there are reports on the island, and all this is promoted primarily by the municipality of Ischia. Then there is the collaboration with the other entities, the other municipalities, so there has been an attempt at revitalisation, an effort on the part of the public administration to restore the image of Ischia, which of course at first was demolished because of the usual criticization about building abuse, which, I repeat, I do not justify.

 

Person 2: The first house demolished in Ischia was for a canopy that was built that made the whole structure illegal.

 

Person 1: Then in Ischia you have to distinguish what is "necessary illegal building" from "eco monsters." You know the economy is based on tourism, and unfortunately there are hotels of 20 rooms that become 100, that is the problem. In this regard, I read that a month or so ago, a hotel had been ordered to demolish 300 square meters that were in violation, which, however, had been suspended in view of the tourist season. So a differentiation has to be made between poor citizens who out of necessity build and those who for speculative reasons enlarge structures. I think a distinction has to be made.

 

Person 2: I would like to highlight that when talking about the Ischia landslide, the size of the island was not put into evidence. We are 6 municipalities, and Casamicciola and the landslide are a very small part of it, so it is not the whole island that has been demolished.

 

Sofia: Exactly, in fact I wanted to talk about that. Does it sadden you to think that when people think of Ischia they think of the landslide? And how do you think this image can be changed?

 

Person 1: Mah, people have a short memory Sofia. Everyone cried when in 2017 there was the earthquake in Casamicciola, in fact the area involved is always that, and in the city of Ischia nothing was felt, there was no damage, the damage was limited to that area. It is talked about in the moment but then forgotten.

 

Person 2: Above all, institutions forget.

 

Person 1: That's right, especially the institutions because after 2017, many people did not return to live there. So from a public opinion point of view they look at the phenomenon in the immediacy, but after that they forget. Now you see we talked about the flood, but the issues that were related to the earthquake nobody talked about it.

 

Person 2: Issues that are still alive because the rubble is still there.

 

Sofia: What do you think the main thing is that people need at this time?

 

Persona 2: Security. I remember that in 1906, canalization and terracing works were done on the island, that is, preventative measures following a flood. If you see our lands are all terraced, however over time agriculture has been abandoned so those terraces, the so-called "parracine", that were retaining walls have crumbled so the water drainage channels no longer exist, they have been covered by vegetation, by soil, and this is not a job that can be solved individually because the one alone cannot do it. I still have lands in Serrara Fontana where there are still trees; there used to be the forest rangers, which today no longer exists because it has been incorporated into the Carabinieri...

 

Person 1: In fact you saw the municipality of Ischia which is the flat, central one, where you stayed. However, there is the municipality of Casamicciola, Forio, Serrara Fontana and Barano, which have a large mountainous inland area; so there is a need to restore the work of securing done at the beginning of the previous century.

 

Sofia: Is there anything the government is planning to prevent future disasters like these?

 

Person 2: No [sarcastic laugh]

 

Person 1: No, unfortunately not. Now with the engineers we will have to define a program of reconstruction but, in my opinion, Celario cannot be rebuilt anymore.

 

Person 2: Absolutely not, because clearly it is dangerous.

 

Person 1: Securing will take a really long time. There will have to be cooperation between institutions. At the moment the state has disbursed 54 million then we will have to see with the special commissioner, with the new administration how it will proceed; however, as I told you, while for the rest we have moved forward, for Casamicciola we are still at the first phase. Bagni Square has been opened, it has been cleaned, the tobacco shop and the baths have been opened. But then behind Bagni square, however, there are still restricted areas.

 

Sofia: Thank you, with that we have finished the interview so thank you very much for your answers!

 

Person 2: You are welcome! Bye!

 

Person 1: Thank you Sofia!